Varsity Seedings

[wrestlingdad101]

Can anyone explain the seedings for the state tournament, assuming that what is on Flo right now is correct and won't change? How does Gabe Bouyssou get a 6th seed? Mian, who Gabe pinned in the finals at Sectionals, got the #5 seed. In years past I always thought that they had the three divisions seed and then the division 1 #1 got the 1, the division 2 #1 got the 2 in the bracket and the division 3 #1 got the 3 in the bracket (I really didn't agree with this either). Assuming they went away from that because of the sectionals but the above example and others don't make sense. Just trying to understand the thought process. 

[johnlynx]

Flo uses a standard 32 man bracket. RI wrestling uses its own bracket. Gabe is Div 2/3 - 1 seed, it just happens to be on that line. It's a predetermined bracket,where you plug guys in according to their sectional finish (div 2/3) and powerpoint finish (Div 1)

I don't understand how they just don't seed the tournament accordingly, but that's how RI does it

[JimmyM]

You can’t objectively seed so that D2 and D1 are commingled where the top four guys get the respective 1 through 4 seeds, since D1 and D2/3 power points aren’t the same (since D1 is presumably better competition and less forfeits).

It’s set up so that on paper, if you assume D2-1 and D2-2 run through, the semis are D1-1 vs D2-2 and D1-2 vs D2-1, which puts you in line for a “correct” finals match.

If there’s a seeding injustice between the D2-2 and the D1-2, it’ll be sorted out in the consis (when they hit for third). It makes sense (or as much as it can, mixing two divisions), you just can’t look at the numbers next to the names.

The system probably hurts fringe placers more than the Top 2 in each division, since the way blood rounds fall can be a crapshoot, especially if talent is more concentrated to one division. But I’m not sure there’s a better way to objectively seed. It wouldn’t really be fair to just do it off of power rankings.

[serge]

I believe the New Englands changed the way they are doing the seeding this year.

[atlantaal]

It is a confusing system for seeding, but it all stems from the use of Powerpoints and an attempt to be as objective as possible on seeding positions. I don't claim to understand how Powerpoints work - I was befuddled when posters on this site started mentioning them years ago on this site - but it's trying to take away the subjectivity of seeding in the old days when the coaches would get together on the Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday before the States and argue things out for 3-4 hours, then produce a bracket. For comparison look at Floarena now and the brackets for Massachusetts and Connecticut - which are still the two most important states in NE wrestling with the most entries - still don't have the brackets up because their coaches have to sort out between three or four state champions in each weight class, with many instances of guys who are still undefeated within their states competing in the same weightclass. That's got to be difficult. So RIIL has a system and they're sticking with it, and we get brackets already completed on Monday morning.

Surveying this year's seating the logic is becoming a little more apparent to me. The goal of course is to try to avoid the two best wrestlers facing each other before the finals. How to do that when the top wrestlers in Division 1 have seldom faced their top counterparts in Divisions 2/3, and the Powerpoints differentiate the value of the respective competition? You automatically appoint the D1 wrestler with the most Powerpoints as the No. 1 seed, and you automatically put the D2/3 champ where he cannot meet the D1 favorite until the championship match by burying him/her in the 6th seed position. Why so low? Well, you are now in the lower bracket away from the No. 1 seed, and if you are actually the best or second best wrestler in the state you get to prove it by beating the No. 3 and No. 2 seeds to get to the putative best wrestler. If you can't get through those challenges then you probably weren't the best or second-best wrestler in RI in the first place. Why not any higher, such as 2 or 3? Because the PowerPoint values work against you (again, I don't understand PP; defending state champ counts for nothing?), and as above if you are truly the second or third best wrestler in RI, or even better, then prove it. Heck, you only have to get by the No. 22 seed - 22! - to get to No. 3. We are fortunate to be involved in a sport where each competitor gets to prove their own worth, despite seeding position.

The second goal, if one does not become the State champion, is to make it to the New England championships and seek out new accomplishments. It certainly benefits RI to send its three best in each weightclass to NEs, where seeding is even more punishing and painfully "objective." So putting the actual best/second best/third best wrestler in the class away from the putative best and in close proximity to the putative second/third best wrestlers makes sense. Win that side of the bracket or win out through the consolations and you go to the New Englands. Lose in the semifinals and you only need to win two matches to qualify to go to NEs. Again, don't tell me, show me.

One oddity to this system, however, is the the Division 2/3 runner-up is atomically placed in a higher seeded position than the champ in the No. 5 spot. Does this make sense? Not apparently, but again it serves a purpose. If you are not the best wrestler in Divisions 2 or 3 (based upon the tournament results) then it is much less likely that you are best or even second best wrestler in the State. Someone such as Mr. Parker may disagree with this assessment, but again he gets to prove it wrong. Beat the No. 4 seed, then take on No. 1 seed (or his conqueror) and go the finals with a shot at the title. Lose in the semis, then win two and go to New England. Lose to No. 5 then, well, you probably weren't No. 1 or 2 after all, but you still have that shot at No. 3 and a chance for redemption at New Englands. Wrestling is a wonderful sport.

The 145 pound class, despite the seeming slight of Mr. Bouyssou, is a good example of how the system works. Yes, Gabriel is an anomaly and should be No. 1 of course, but I am reasonably confident of his ability to thrive from any seeded position. Meanwhile, many of us have speculated on what would happen in a rematch between Messrs. Vital and Mian two and a half months later. Now we may get to see that at States as opposed to Mr. Bouyssou possibly eliminating them successively in the semis and finals without them actually meeting. I can certainly understand someone like Mr. Futardo being less than pleased with this arrangement, but that's where the "objectivity" of Powerpoints comes in. Vital and Futardo didn't meet in the BH/MH dual, Futardo bumped up to 152 lost to Skyler Reid 7-4, who is only seeded 12th at 152. So Vital apparently finishes up with more PPs. [BTW, did this actually happen? I ask because that's the only match I've seen in two years where Thibodeau was entered at 145.] And if Mr. Bouyssou is still miffed over his lowly position, then I guess he can go home after practice each day before States and look at his stop sign trophy from Fargo and still feel good about himself. He seems to be a mature lad so I'm sure he'll manage, as will all RI wrestling fans ultimately. It is not a perfect system as this example demonstrates, and I'm not fully defending the Powerpoint approach, but until someone comes up with a better system this will do. Sigh, I did like those old seeding battles, even with the smoke-filled rooms (some coaches still smoked back then!).