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Post by cowboy on Feb 16, 2018 19:43:37 GMT -5
I have to agree with *alwayswatching that the refereeing at the D2 meets is terrible. Most of the refs are far from being in wrestling shape. They also never seem to be in position. At some point, one should be able to anticipate where the move is going to take the wrestlers. Many times I have seen a kid take his opponent down to his back only to see the ref have to walk around to get to where he needs to be. *pepethecoach is correct when saying he's seen refs counting back points while standing and walking to position. That's poor practice on the refs part. They miss many pins that way.
In reply to *rulesguy regarding D2 occasionally taking precedence, I disagree. For example, the Hope vs. Woonsocket meet, that should've had one of the best refs present. They are two very good wrestling programs that would compete at the D1 level easily. They were both undefeated and wrestling for a Division title. But yet you did not send a D1 ref to that meet. The ref not being in proper position for the McDowell/Dunston match made the difference between winning and losing.
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Post by pinklemon5 on Feb 17, 2018 7:34:00 GMT -5
Refs need to stop taking out there frustration with coaches out on the kids wrestling for their teams. If you are a ref that does this you might want to go to some therapy
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Post by wiseowl on Feb 18, 2018 11:14:47 GMT -5
Ok, I’ve been a hs coach in RI for well over 20years. My 1st and most simple answer to everyone’s gripes is sign up to be a reg, be the difference, give back to the sport and make it better. It’s easy to sit back and Monday morning quarterback, it’s another to be out there making split second decisions. Remember the refs number 1 responsibility is the wrestlers safety, soooo if they’re out of position for that purpose, so be it. The wrestlers scrambling around, the ref can only be on one side and see so many angles at once, while yes you see a certain view from your angle, the ref didn’t. The sport is very subjective, and everyone’s a critic. As for the overall shot at a refs health or appearance, 1) they are out there, where are you? 2) do you know howmany refs are still around from when I started coaching, almost 1/2. Why? Mostly because they love the sport, but I know they’d love to hang it up if more people stepped up and became refs. 3) I’m guessing you be shocked at how much cardio shape they are actually in, it takes a lot to ref 14 matches or a tourny all day. I’ve seen plenty of bad reffing across NE and I’ve seen great reffing. As for a picture of a “pin”, was he flat for 2 seconds, let’s not forget these cameras snap 10-20 pics per sec. I didn’t see the match so can only rationalize. Calls get missed, refs are sometimes out of position, the public’s view or perception is different than the refs, etc. At the end of the day these are the refs who signed up for the job, there’s no one else stepping forward. So come off your soapbox and throw your hat in the ring. See wrestling f a different perspective. I’ve had disagreements w refs over calls, I’ve shown them wrong as they’ve shown me wrong. I’ve had refs admit they screwed up and while it * when effects your wrestler, at least they manned up. For every great call made, someone will disagree with.
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Post by coachmike05 on Feb 27, 2018 15:28:32 GMT -5
SITUATION 1: Wrestler A reports to the mat with her laces double-knotted and taped together. She is instructed by the referee to correctly secure or replace her shoes within the 1½-minute injury time. RULING: Correct procedure. Rule 4-1-3 states if the shoes have laces, the laces shall be taped to the shoe or secured by a locking device. Rule 7-3-5 also requires one match point to be awarded to the opponent for a technical violation. If a shoe is properly “secured” should it come off in a wrestling match? If not, what is the correct procedure when assessing a technical violation? My son wrestled out at Ironman this year, and this was a big issue. FloWrestling's coverage of it was called "shoe gate". I don't have the exact rule number.. but If wrestler A's shoe comes off during the match, it's a 1 point technical violation. In the ironman match, Wrestler A's coaches were arguing that wrestler B pulled the shoe off, since it came off during an attempted takedown. However,regardless if wrestler B touched the shoe or not, Wrestler A is still penalized a point for not properly securing their shoe... The match I'm referring to was at 126 between Joey Silva and Real Woods. |
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Post by coachmike05 on Feb 27, 2018 16:00:12 GMT -5
Yes, my fault on the weight class.. the shoe came off a 2nd time later in the match, and that was when Wood's corner claimed that Silva deliberately pulled the shoe off again.. and even though it actually did look like Silva pulled it off the 2nd time, didn't matter.. Silva was still awarded another 1 point for Woods shoe coming of each time
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Post by pepethecoach823 on Feb 28, 2018 0:18:59 GMT -5
Ahhhh so you’re saying in the 126 finals match with Clarke v fine a point should’ve been awarded?
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Post by rulesguy on Feb 28, 2018 8:43:07 GMT -5
Rule 3.1.6 - The legality of all equipment, including mats, markings, uniforms and special equipment, pads and taping, shall be decided by the referee. A referee's time-out shall be declared for the purpose of correcting legal equipment which becomes illegal or inoperative through use.
Any shoe that is judge to be legal at the start of wrestling that becomes illegal through normal competition is not a penalty. It is a referees time out to correct the equipment.
4.1.3 SITUATION: A wrestler reports to the scorer’s table wearing shoes that do not have laces. During competition one of the shoes is damaged, i.e. the zipper or Velcro will no longer keep the shoe secure.
RULING: This would be treated the same as any other equipment that becomes illegal during competition. The match would be stopped, the shoe could be secured to meet requirements and the match would restart without penalty.
In regards to the 126 pound match, you can clearly see the tape wrapped around the wrestlers shoe that secures the laces to the shoe. All aspects of the equipment were legal and it came off and became illegal through normal use during the match. No penalty is (or should ever be) awarded in such a situation).
There is a reason that Flowrestling match is called "shoe gate" and its not because of the wrestlers.
Perhaps its the referees you have watched in the past that can learn a little from us.
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Post by rulesguy on Feb 28, 2018 9:18:41 GMT -5
You ask about it being done differently... I propose that it is not.
Rule 4.1.3 as written states "Wrestlers shall wear light heelless wrestling shoes, reaching above the ankles. If the shoes have laces, the laces shall either be taped to the shoe or secured by a locking device on the wrestling shoe in an acceptable fashion." This is copy pasted from the rule book.
I have never seen your written interpretation/wording of 4-1-3 anywhere. So, I must question its source.
However, to your written interpretations points:
"Wrestling shoes that have been cut back so they do not extend above the ankle have been determined to be illegal by the National Federation." - I would agree as this would fall under 4-1-5 which states The uniform shall be worn as intended/designed by the manufacturer. Obviously "cutting the shoe" is not how the manufacturer intended it to be worn, thus it would be illegal.
"If during competition a shoe comes off, it is obvious that the shoe was not adequately secured as specified in the rule; therefore, a technical violation will be assessed and an injury timeout will be charged to correct it." - Again, this would seem to only apply if "it is obvious that the shoe was not adequately secured as specified in the rule". If a shoe has been pulled tightly, double knotted, and tape wrapping the laces to the shoe so that they cant come loose I would offer an opinion that it was "adequately secured as specified in the rule". My overall point being is that you can do everything right and still have a shoe come off.
No wrestler will ever (or should ever) be penalized for the failure or properly applied or used equipment. If they are, then the referee who penalized the wrestler failed at his job.
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Post by rulesguy on Feb 28, 2018 9:30:51 GMT -5
2018 RIIL State Tournament - Shoe comes offAs you can see in the video, after the shoe comes off the first person to get and look at the shoe is the referee. He can see the shoe has met all the requirements set forth by NFHS and its rules. Thus, no penalty is awarded for legal equipment becoming illegal or inoperable through normal competition.
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Post by rulesguy on Feb 28, 2018 9:34:40 GMT -5
Also, your source comes from the same state who this year told the NFHS they were NOT going to follow the Out-of-Bounds rules and they were going to write their own. They chose to allow wrestling to continue in near fall situations in which the defensive wrestler was out of bounds and the offensive wrestler only had his toes left on the mat. Something NFHS told them not to do.
So while other states are doing things differently, they MAY not always be the ones who are correct.
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Post by pepethecoach823 on Feb 28, 2018 9:44:50 GMT -5
Yeah whatup, idk why you’re crying about me mentioning their match it was obvious the post about the shoe rule was about that. No need to hide and it was two different senerios and rulesguy I feel like got it on point I agree with him and I gladly understand the rule more
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Post by rulesguy on Feb 28, 2018 9:49:35 GMT -5
I missed the "IT IS OBVIOUS" and added my own "IF" the first time I read it. I apologize for that.
What I cannot understand however, is how NY could interpret a legal shoe any differently than they would a legal head gear? If a head gear is properly put on an secured, it should never come loose or off. Would they penalize a wrestler for having to readjust a head gear that had come over and past his face when their is an appropriate break in the action? Would they penalize a wrestler for a knee pad coming down to the ankle or a shoulder brace becoming undone? If they wouldn't do it for those reasons, then why do it for a legal shoe?
To me it just doesn't make sense.
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Post by coachmike05 on Feb 28, 2018 11:14:32 GMT -5
At the Eastern States Tournament, NY the officials also put out that the tape securing the laces had to be on the shoes going around the ankle to secure the shoe on the foot as well. You can wrap tape over the sole, to keep the laces down, which a lot of kids used to do, but that doesn’t mean the shoe is tied tightly on the foot. The shoe can come off and still look as if the laces are taped, without it being a tight fit.. a ref would have to look at the shoe on the foot.. which a ref normally wouldn’t do. The match I mentioned earlier at Ironman, Real Woods was wearing Nike inflicts with the velcro ankle strap, which was in accordance with the rules and his shoe still came off and he was penalized for it (in Ohio) His coach taped around the ankle after the second time. Believe in college if your shoe comes off, it’s a stalling call, . the ref doesn’t look at the shoe, regardless of the wrestler. It’s the rule, black and white. That way keeps the fans off the ref.
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Post by rulesguy on Feb 28, 2018 12:39:58 GMT -5
At the Eastern States Tournament, NY the officials also put out that the tape securing the laces had to be on the shoes going around the ankle to secure the shoe on the foot as well. You can wrap tape over the sole, to keep the laces down, which a lot of kids used to do, but that doesn’t mean the shoe is tied tightly on the foot. The shoe can come off and still look as if the laces are taped, without it being a tight fit.. a ref would have to look at the shoe on the foot.. which a ref normally wouldn’t do. The match I mentioned earlier at Ironman, Real Woods was wearing Nike inflicts with the velcro ankle strap, which was in accordance with the rules and his shoe still came off and he was penalized for it (in Ohio) His coach taped around the ankle after the second time. Believe in college if your shoe comes off, it’s a stalling call, . the ref doesn’t look at the shoe, regardless of the wrestler. It’s the rule, black and white. That way keeps the fans off the ref. In my opinion, it is not the job of the officials to force a wrestler to tape their shoelaces a specific way. So long as it complies with the rules of the sport, they can tape them how they see fit. Did the officials require wrestlers whose shoes had a built in lace guard on them to tape them on securely at the ankle? Did they require wrestlers who had shoes that didn't have laces to tape them at the ankle? Some built in guards are only in the tounge of the shoe and provide no extra support to keep the shoe on. Did they require these wrestlers to tape the tops of their shoes? If they did not, then they are not uniformly enforcing their own interpretation of the rules. The fact that they made such a big deal out of it leads me to believe that they deal with this a lot with people traveling in from out of state. This tells me that they (and the few others that follow) may be the outlier. However, it would also not be the first time NY has decided to use its own interpretations in opposition to others and the NFHS. As stated earlier, NY (and a few other states) chose to ignore NFHS interpretation on the OB rules. They ruled that in any pinning situation in which the only thing left on the mat inbounds where the feet of the offensive wrestler, that they would allow wrestling to continue as long as the knees of the offensive wrestler remained over the inbound area. This was in direct contradiction to how NFHS wanted it called (no matter how ridiculous the NFHS rule is) as NFHS sent out multiple images showing this exact situation as to be out of bounds. I can appreciate the stall call concept in college. They are consistent that any delay in the match results in this kind of call (i.e. the first injury time out). I have reached out to the other New England State Rules interpreters on this to see if I can get other opinions. I will follow up with the responses for this thread. |
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Post by rulesguy on Feb 28, 2018 12:49:24 GMT -5
First response I got back was from CT. Here is the email in its entirety.
Joe
In Connecticut :
If the shoe comes off and the official determines it was properly secured ( taped or velcro secured ) we do not penalize, we just have the wrestler re-secure the shoe
If we determine the shoe was not taped or velcroed properly, we will penalize and start injury time.
Same if the laces come untied. If not taped or properly velcroed, we penalize and start injury time.
(Name Redacted)
Connecticut
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Post by alwayswatching on Feb 28, 2018 22:11:05 GMT -5
What site will be streaming New England's this year?
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Post by rulesguy on Mar 1, 2018 8:47:07 GMT -5
Received feedback via "shoe gate" from CT, MA, ME, and NH (VT has not yet responded)... all are in agreement that if the shoe was considered legal to begin the match and its clear after it came off that it was properly secured with respect to the rules, that no penalty will be taken against the wrestler if it comes off during normal competition.
While I agree with you it is possible that a competitor might try this as a "tactic", it is also possible that if it is always a point it might be used as a tactic by the opponent as well (intentionally trying to pull it off).
In all instances, I believe both the rules and the concepts of common sense and fair play should be adhered to.
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Post by rulesguy on Mar 1, 2018 8:47:46 GMT -5
What site will be streaming New England's this year? The NFHS network will stream the finals. |
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Post by pinklemon5 on Mar 1, 2018 11:16:55 GMT -5
What site will be streaming New England's this year? The NFHS network will stream the finals. Floarena |
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Post by rulesguy on Mar 1, 2018 15:17:13 GMT -5
The NFHS network will stream the finals. Floarena Arena will have the event (Brackets)... I am not sure if it will be providing video. I do know the NFHS network will broadcast the finals. |
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