Rhode Island officiating

[alwayswatching]

I have been to so many matches all over new england over the last 3 years and by far Rhode Island officiating has been horrendous compared to any other state, so many inconsitinces in calls even some of RI head officials have gotten clear calls wrong. There needs to be better officiating all around. RI officiating is hands down the worst in New England by a landslide!!!

[JimmyM]

If we switched refs with Maine you'd be begging for the RI refs back after about 1 period

[wrestlersdad]

I think it is about like any other youth sport anywhere else. Higher levels of competition at better tournaments usually seems to have better officiating. Dual meets is luck of the draw. I'm just glad somebody shows up to do it. It would be good if everybody could get on the same page as to what is a pin, what constitutes stalling, and what should be considered potentially dangerous.

[rulesguy]

Feb 15, 2018 10:41:25 GMT -5 alwayswatching said:

I have been to so many matches all over new england over the last 3 years and by far Rhode Island officiating has been horrendous compared to any other state, so many inconsitinces in calls even some of RI head officials have gotten clear calls wrong. There needs to be better officiating all around. RI officiating is hands down the worst in New England by a landslide!!!

As the President/Rules Interpreter for the RI Officials, I'd like to have a discussion about this. If you have specific examples (video or wording) I would gladly listen or look and give you the appropriate response. I would also appreciate your perspective. Where are you coming from? Which tournaments/out-of-state competitions are you observing?

I'll be up front an honest with you, this is not the feedback we receive often. Usually the feedback is quite positive, especially from teams coming in from out of state. When we travel out of state for events like the Prep Schools we also get great feedback from those coaches who may only see us once or twice a year. Lastly, our coaches often come back from out of state events telling us "its great to be back home where things on a mat make sense".

So, if you just came to rant I get it and this is a platform to do so. However, if you want to have a dialogue, I'd be happy to do that as well.

[alwayswatching]

I understand everyone's input 100%. I have been to numerous tourneys and meets in New England this season. I went to the Lowell holiday tournament as well as the ranger invitational in Methuen and attended a few D1 Mass quad meets with top tier teams. I have also followed Rhode island wrestling closely Smithfield invitational, North providence tourney. Multiple meets.
My thing that looks bad for the RI officiating is the lack of knowledge by officials the calls are never the same, I am pretty sure I have seen the you (to rules guy) even tell coaches on multiple occasions my ref got it wrong.

You won't see those type of mistakes at the mass D1 level or D2 level at all. Multiple. I just think the lack of consistency amongstthe refs is bad down here, it's not like football where there might be different interpretations of the rule, wrestling rules are for the most part black and white l

[rulesguy]

Feb 15, 2018 13:01:00 GMT -5 wrestlersdad said:

I think it is about like any other youth sport anywhere else. Higher levels of competition at better tournaments usually seems to have better officiating. Dual meets is luck of the draw. I'm just glad somebody shows up to do it. It would be good if everybody could get on the same page as to what is a pin, what constitutes stalling, and what should be considered potentially dangerous.

The pin I agree with you. Some guys count faster, some guys count slower. The count is supposed to be 2 seconds long. Since we aren't using a stop watch, I would say most refs are between 1.5 to 2 seconds. Anyone fast than that, is too quick and anyone slower is too slow. However, it does help for those observing to understand what needs to be on the mat for a Pin. It only needs to be any part of either the shoulder or scapula on both sides. Not the whole thing just a piece of it. Here is a pic:

drive.google.com/file/d/1yFHNyN4UWmWu7BMxc_T3KuQNVxlyp5FD/view?usp=sharing

It simply needs to be any part (even a small part) of both the left and right side down on the mat for a referees two second count.

Stalling is clearly defined in the rule book, case book, and referees manual. The problem is that there are a lot of people that "know" what stalling is via "word of mouth" rather than reading the actual rules and interpretations. It is true that stalling is one of the things most difficult to get consistent on. The reason is you can't draw a picture of it. You have to "feel" it, you have to "know" it, and you need to remain objective about it. Unless it is a situation of defined rule stalling, all referees will feel a match differently and thus will call stalling slightly differently. When working together, our group consistently critiques each other on our views on stalling in best effort to achieve a more consistent viewpoint on the matches across the membership. Here is the stalling rule as it is written (there is more in the casebook, but too much to post here):

ART. 1 . . . Each wrestler is required to make an honest attempt to stay within the 10-foot circle and wrestle aggressively, regardless of position or the time or score of the match. Action is to be maintained throughout the match by the contestants wrestling aggressively whether in the top, bottom or neutral position and both contestants are equally responsible for initiating action. It is the responsibility of contestants, coaches and referees to avoid the use of stalling tactics or allowing the use thereof. This shall be demonstrated by those responsible with strict enforcement by referees.

ART. 2 . . . When a referee recognizes stalling occurring at any time and in any position, the offender shall be warned and thereafter violations shall be penalized when stalling recurs. These provisions require the referee to penalize stalling without hesitation. Stalling shall be penalized in accordance with the Penalty Chart. (See "Table" above.)

ART. 3 . . . It is stalling in the neutral position when a wrestler:
a. continuously avoids contact with the opponent;
b. plays the edge of the mat;
c. prevents the opponent from returning to or remaining inbounds; or
d. is not attempting to secure a takedown.

ART. 4 . . . It is stalling when the contestant in the advantage position:
a. does not wrestle aggressively and attempts to secure a fall, except when the wrestler intentionally releases the opponent in order to thereafter immediately attempt to secure a takedown;
b. legally holds the heel to the buttocks while the defensive wrestler is ­broken down on the mat for more than five seconds; or
c. holding an opponent's leg with the use of two hands on two legs or two hands on one leg in action not designed to break the opponent down, or is for the purpose of securing a fall, or is to prevent an escape or reversal, is stalling. Repeated grasping and holding the leg or legs with both hands or arms to break an opponent down for the sole purpose of controlling is stalling.

ART. 5 . . . When a defensive wrestler refuses to aggressively attempt escapes or reversals, it is stalling.

ART. 6 . . . It is stalling when either wrestler:
a. repeatedly grasps or interlocks around one leg of the opponent to prevent scoring; or
b. delays the match. This includes straggling back from out of bounds, unnecessarily changing or adjusting equipment or delay in assuming the starting position on the mat; or
c. repeatedly creates a stalemate situation to prevent an opponent from scoring.

ART. 7 . . . The defensive wrestler is not stalling when overpowered.

Potentially Dangerous calls are similar to stalling in that a majority of situations are based on "feel". There are very few holds and situations that require a stoppage for potentially dangerous. The feel of a situation will depend on a lot of things: Size of the wrestlers (weight class), skill of the wrestlers (how likely are they going to be able to move safely out of it), bend-ability of the wrestlers (some guys are clearly more flexible). Referees will always do their best to keep the wrestlers safe while also not trying to disadvantage a wrestler. It is wrestling and no matter how proactive referees are people will get hurt/injured. However, no two situations unless defined by rule are the same, and as before, the feel of the match and the referee will govern. This will continue to make some calls look inconsistent.

ART. 1 . . . Holds/maneuvers are potentially dangerous when a body part is forced to the limit of normal range of movement. The wrestler applying such a hold/maneuver shall be cautioned against forcing it into an illegal position. If the offensive wrestler causes a potentially dangerous hold/maneuver to become illegal, the offender shall be penalized according to the Penalty Chart ("Table" above).

ART. 2 . . . Potentially dangerous holds/maneuvers include:
a. the double wristlock;
b. split scissors;
c. the guillotine, when the arm is forced to such an extent as to endanger a contestant;
d. chicken wing;
e. toeholds;
f. a front headlock or any headlock with an arm or leg encircled; and
g. when a wrestler stands, with one or both arms trapped; and
h. other holds/maneuvers which may cause injury when used legally.

Contestants should know the dangers of these holds/maneuvers. The referee should anticipate the dangers of injury from these holds/maneuvers and be in a position to block them before they reach the danger point. The referee shall verbally caution contestants against forcing potentially dangerous holds/maneuvers into illegal positions without interrupting action, unless it is necessary to stop the hold/maneuver in order to prevent injury. When the defensive wrestler stands supporting all of the weight of the offensive wrestler, a potentially dangerous situation exists and the referee shall stop the match. (Photos 91-104)

ART. 3 . . . The double wristlock and chicken wing become illegal when forced into a twisting hammerlock position, or with the force applied parallel instead of perpendicular to the long axis of the opponent's body.

ART. 4 . . . No contestant should ever be put in a position where they must ­forfeit a neutral position, a position of advantage or a fall because of an injury or ­danger to life or limb. The referee shall promptly stop any and all holds/maneuvers which are being used for punishment. If a legitimate hold/maneuver is forced to such an extent as to endanger a contestant, or if it becomes a punishing hold/maneuver, the ­referee shall stop the match in order to require the hold/maneuver to be broken. The match shall be restarted as following an out of bounds.

[rulesguy]

Feb 15, 2018 15:56:20 GMT -5 alwayswatching said:

I understand everyone's input 100%. I have been to numerous tourneys and meets in New England this season. I went to the Lowell holiday tournament as well as the ranger invitational in Methuen and attended a few D1 Mass quad meets with top tier teams. I have also followed Rhode island wrestling closely Smithfield invitational, North providence tourney. Multiple meets.
My thing that looks bad for the RI officiating is the lack of knowledge by officials the calls are never the same, I am pretty sure I have seen the you (to rules guy) even tell coaches on multiple occasions my ref got it wrong.

You won't see those type of mistakes at the mass D1 level or D2 level at all. Multiple. I just think the lack of consistency amongstthe refs is bad down here, it's not like football where there might be different interpretations of the rule, wrestling rules are for the most part black and white l

I have told multiple coaches in the past, that our ref got it wrong. But I think you are kidding yourself if you do not think MA has that same problem on a more than consistent basis. I work closely with the Mass Rules Interpreter and trust me, even their best have issues.

Mass sent a representative to the New England Tournament 2 years ago that missed the most obvious illegal move in the world, such that the whole gym watched it happen. The match was stopped, the call was argued, and the official refused to reverse his decision and lied to my face (the head ref at the time) about what happened on the mat to try and save face. 2000 people watching a match, everyone saw a backflip from a standing position (feet to feet) and he said the kid simply fell over. All because he didn't know the move was illegal and didn't want to fix his mistake. Their NEW ENGLAND REPRESENTATIVE, the one supposed to be their best or one of their best on the year, did that.

As you said you followed the Lowell Holiday's and Methuen. Those are two top tournaments and will most likely see some of Mass's better officials. Smithfield and NP (no offense intended to either event) do not often get the same treatment due to the level of competition that is there. Both of those weekends, had some significantly more high profile events being assigned by our group that weekend and thus received the higher ranked officials. Such is life.

As I said before, if there is a specific you wish to discuss, I'd be happy to cover it. Otherwise, enjoy the rest of your season.

[JimmyM]

Feb 15, 2018 16:18:30 GMT -5 rulesguy said:

Feb 15, 2018 15:56:20 GMT -5 alwayswatching said:

I understand everyone's input 100%. I have been to numerous tourneys and meets in New England this season. I went to the Lowell holiday tournament as well as the ranger invitational in Methuen and attended a few D1 Mass quad meets with top tier teams. I have also followed Rhode island wrestling closely Smithfield invitational, North providence tourney. Multiple meets.
My thing that looks bad for the RI officiating is the lack of knowledge by officials the calls are never the same, I am pretty sure I have seen the you (to rules guy) even tell coaches on multiple occasions my ref got it wrong.

You won't see those type of mistakes at the mass D1 level or D2 level at all. Multiple. I just think the lack of consistency amongstthe refs is bad down here, it's not like football where there might be different interpretations of the rule, wrestling rules are for the most part black and white l

I have told multiple coaches in the past, that our ref got it wrong. But I think you are kidding yourself if you do not think MA has that same problem on a more than consistent basis. I work closely with the Mass Rules Interpreter and trust me, even their best have issues.

Mass sent a representative to the New England Tournament 2 years ago that missed the most obvious illegal move in the world, such that the whole gym watched it happen. The match was stopped, the call was argued, and the official refused to reverse his decision and lied to my face (the head ref at the time) about what happened on the mat to try and save face. 2000 people watching a match, everyone saw a backflip from a standing position (feet to feet) and he said the kid simply fell over. All because he didn't know the move was illegal and didn't want to fix his mistake. Their NEW ENGLAND REPRESENTATIVE, the one supposed to be their best or one of their best on the year, did that.

As you said you followed the Lowell Holiday's and Methuen. Those are two top tournaments and will most likely see some of Mass's better officials. Smithfield and NP (no offense intended to either event) do not often get the same treatment due to the level of competition that is there. Both of those weekends, had some significantly more high profile events being assigned by our group that weekend and thus received the higher ranked officials. Such is life.

As I said before, if there is a specific you wish to discuss, I'd be happy to cover it. Otherwise, enjoy the rest of your season.

Although illegal that backflip was wild! Odell vs Viruet I think. Anyhow I agree with rules guy I think the RI guys are top notch, maybe you experienced some of the refs towards the bottom of the chain but when it comes to the state tournament top notch. Maine refs suck and I remember there was another awful ref at the New England tournament a couple years ago made bad calls all day and when DiSano got pinned in the NE finals he rolled through and slapped the mad something obnoxious that made it all about himself we're lucky to have the refs that we do in RI.

[alwayswatching]

It was Reyes from Dedham just to be clear lol.
Ultimately I understand people make mistakes, but at the end of the day it shouldn't be about seniority, how can a ref get better if they weren't given the opportunity. So what your pretty much saying is the division 2 kids aren't worth it? So you send the best to division 1, I think a rotation of some type should be considered. Thank you for your answers by the way.

[pepethecoach823]

To branch off Reyes illegal backflip it would’ve never made it to overtime if the ref didn’t make that awful call when Reyes hit a nasty blast double. It was that nasty that the ref called and illegal slam..

[rulesguy]

Feb 15, 2018 17:17:07 GMT -5 alwayswatching said:

It was Reyes from Dedham just to be clear lol.
Ultimately I understand people make mistakes, but at the end of the day it shouldn't be about seniority, how can a ref get better if they weren't given the opportunity. So what your pretty much saying is the division 2 kids aren't worth it? So you send the best to division 1, I think a rotation of some type should be considered. Thank you for your answers by the way.

Not saying that all, but as an assignor I have to smart about where I send my better officials.

Just as a coach will move his line up to suit a dual meet strategy. I and other officiating assignors will assign our officials according to their skill sets. Why would I send a top official to a match with 10 forfeitsand maybe 1 contested match up when the same night there is a dual with no forfeits and 4 or 5 matches where state place winners will be wrestling each other. If I did that would be foolish, as an official who isn’t ready for that type of match may lose control of not just the scoring, but of tempers.

Our assigning is also not based on seniority, but simply ability and effort. When referees are ready they advance. We’ve had referees work the states their second year on varsity. We’ve had refs who scrapped and clawed and got better over time and worked them in year 10 or 15. Just like you probably saw when you said I have talked to coaches, these guys get their chances. They always have eyes on them. Whether it’s mine or someone else’s that I trust.

[rulesguy]

Feb 15, 2018 17:40:44 GMT -5 pepethecoach823 said:

To branch off Reyes illegal backflip it would’ve never made it to overtime if the ref didn’t make that awful call when Reyes hit a nasty blast double. It was that nasty that the ref called and illegal slam..

Agreed, the slam was not a slam.

[alwayswatching]

Well the ref that was sent to a division 2 championship dual should of been on of your best officials IMO, from what I saw and heard it wasn't the best. Two undefeated teams with a division tityle o the line and they don't call a clear pin with 4p seconds on the scoreboard. So that rightgvthere tells me you favor division 1 100% which isn't fair to these kids, but whatever obviously will never change. Feel bad for the future of division 2 wrestlers always will be a back seat to division 1.

[pepethecoach823]

The refs in my opinion are a bit lazy vs them being bad. If they got in position quicker they wouldn’t miss as many calls. From what I see they make pretty good calls just lack getting in position. Never until this year have I seen a ref start his back points count standing Up

[rulesguy]

I have never not seen a near fall count start standing up for the following holds... feet to back, head locks, tilts, cradles, and wings... obviously in some of these it’s because it goes there quickly and others turn on a dime requiring an official to be on there feet to adjust.

Also, there are plenty of nights D2 matches take precedent.

[rulesguy]

BTW... if there is an image from someone being pinned, I would like to see it. I’ve looked online and there doesn’t seem to be one.

[alwayswatching]

How do I add a picture to this thread, i have it and clearly shows the pin and the ref out of position

[alwayswatching]

www.woonsocketcall.com/sports/local_sports/
Here is the link you can clearly see dunston was pinned and the ref is out of position, the ref needed to be chest on the mat especially since McDowell arm was clear of the back

[rulesguy]

Feb 15, 2018 19:53:22 GMT -5 alwayswatching said:

www.woonsocketcall.com/sports/local_sports/
Here is the link you can clearly see dunston was pinned and the ref is out of position, the ref needed to be chest on the mat especially since McDowell arm was clear of the back

They had a photo gallery in the ProJo for this match, but not this picture which is why I couldn’t find it. I was looking in the wrong paper. I will admit in this picture the fall looks imminent. Meaning he is flat, but i’m not sure where in the two second count we are. To give my opinion on that I would have to be able to see it in real time.

To say the referee is out of position though is just ridiculous. He couldn’t be anymore in position. He’s at the head of the wrestlers with clear view of the pinning area and of any potential illegal hold. Because he’s not laying flat does not make someone out of position. Often times being flat, is what makes someone out of position with no easy way to adjust to a changing situation. While I respect that you feel he missed the fall (and he may have) to question his positioning here is anything but appropriate.

[alwayswatching]

I understand maybe he was looking for an illegal hold or something. But the official should be looking at the right shoulder blade as clearly the left one was flat therefore him looking in the armpit to me looks out of position.