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Post by rulesguy on Feb 27, 2011 20:37:07 GMT -5
I have seen a few posts that are looking for a place to critique the officials.
As an official myself, Joe Gravina for those who do not know who this is, I do not think we are above the critisism that you wish to give us; however, some of the posts about who gets to go to the states and how we are evaluated disturb me.
So I would like to set the record straight and let you know how we are evaluated.
All 34 coaches are given an evaluation sheet for all of the officials and asked to rate them on a scale from 1-5 and leave specific comments. This is done at the Junior Varsity State Tournament.
Each officials hi score (to eliminate favoritism) and low score (to eliminate a grudge) are thrown out and then an average is calculated. The top 8 scores determine which refs go to the states.
27 Coaches turned in there ballots this year. The top 8 averages ranged from 4.78 to 3.63.
So for those who have posted and believe we are selected at random or only by certain coaches, you are mistaken. It is truely all of your coaches who select us to be at the states and I believe you got the best of the best.
Please feel free to comment or ask questions, I will be glad to answer them
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Post by wiseowl on Feb 27, 2011 21:08:33 GMT -5
I have seen a few posts that are looking for a place to critique the officials. As an official myself, Joe Gravina for those who do not know who this is, I do not think we are above the critisism that you wish to give us; however, some of the posts about who gets to go to the states and how we are evaluated disturb me. So I would like to set the record straight and let you know how we are evaluated. All 34 coaches are given an evaluation sheet for all of the officials and asked to rate them on a scale from 1-5 and leave specific comments. This is done at the Junior Varsity State Tournament. Each officials hi score (to eliminate favoritism) and low score (to eliminate a grudge) are thrown out and then an average is calculated. The top 8 scores determine which refs go to the states. 27 Coaches turned in there ballots this year. The top 8 averages ranged from 4.78 to 3.63. So for those who have posted and believe we are selected at random or only by certain coaches, you are mistaken. It is truely all of your coaches who select us to be at the states and I believe you got the best of the best. Please feel free to comment or ask questions, I will be glad to answer them Just 1 question, how the hell were you the top vote getter lol |
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Post by rulesguy on Feb 27, 2011 21:12:04 GMT -5
Ha ha ha... thanks for the vote of confidence Owl...
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Post by mexicanman45 on Feb 27, 2011 21:24:07 GMT -5
I definitely thought that all the officials at the states were good guys and good officials...and trust me, there were some pretty bad officials that could have been chosen over them. The method used to chose the officials definitely is effective
My comments in the other thread are directed in the same sense that a good athlete can have a bad day.
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Post by rulesguy on Feb 27, 2011 21:57:42 GMT -5
Also, officials are a part of all of the matches at the tournament. Each ref is responsible for all of the calls in about 75 mathes or so at the state tournament. Wrestlers are responsible for their actions in only 5 or 6. There is a much higher probability that some will dissagree with a ref because of this.
You also never (or very rarely) hear someone say... "that was such a great call on that takedown", or ""the ref was right on on that stalling". Most of the discussion happens when someone thinks a ref made a mistake.
So although it may be fair for some to say that a ref had a bad call, but I dont think any ref there had a bad "day".
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Post by helper on Feb 27, 2011 22:07:29 GMT -5
I had been hoping you or Mr Soars would start this thread at some point. It's important that kids have a place to ask real questions about calls and not rely on the coaches interpretation of it. You will at times get compliments, I think the rankings the coaches give is the highest form of compliments. I'm glad they finally added a comments section.
I hope parents and wrestlers use this as a good way to gain info about calls interpretation. I'd say one of the hardest things for people to deal with are grey area calls... Stalling, what angle a back is for swipes, how quick a pin should be called, ect. This is where people most oftenly get frustrated.
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Post by rulesguy on Feb 27, 2011 22:43:30 GMT -5
I would like to have an open thread next season similar to the Rankings thread in which people can ask those questions. Those who have read the books (both Rule and Case book) or have actually gone so far as to study them, know that there is a lot of grey area and interpretation and not too much black and white. I would be happy to answer any questions that anyone would like to ask... I'll start with one you posted about near falls
Near Falls
There are four ways a wrestler can meet near fall criteria
1) The defensive wrestler has 1 shoulder on the mat and the back line (line across the back from shoulder to shoulder) is at or below a 45 degree angle
2) The defensive wrestler is in a high bridge on his head with the back exposed to the mat
3) The defensive wrestler is on both elbows with his back exposed to the mat
4) The defensive wrestler has his back exposed to the mat and any part of his pinning area (both shoulders or both scapula (shoulder blades)) are within 4 inches of the mat
2 points are awarded if the offensive wrestler holds the defensive wrestler in any of these positions for 2 to 4 seconds.
3 points are awarded if it is done for 5 or more seconds
Every ref will have a slightly different timing on there count (some faster, some slower) as we are all human and all different... and since we dont have rulers or protractors out there with us we all see 45 degrees and 4 inches a little different.
Awarding Near Fall points
The book says that Near Fall points are not to be awarded until the "near fall situation has ended". it does NOT say when the pinning combonation has changed or has been released. It is the referee's job to determine when the defensive wrestler has come out of the near fall situation and can reasonably defend himself from going back into near fall criteria.
Keys we look for, in determining a situation is over
1) The defensive wrestler has come off of his "fulcrum".
When a wrestler is turned, they are turned on something. Whether it is their shoulder, hip, butt, or side. We would like to see that the defensive wrestler has moved that point off of the mat. (i.e. the are turned by a half nelson over their far shoulder, if they come back in the same direction, that shoulder must come off the mat)
2) The defensive wrestler has at least one free arm with which to defend himself.
If a wrestler has been put to his back with a half and a one-on-one and they come off of their back with both arms still tied up, it is not reasonable to assume that they can defend themselves from going back to their back. Conversely, if a wrestler is tilted with a two-on-one, then comes off their back, establishes a base and has a free arm with which to defend themselves and break the offensive wrestler's grip, the situation could be interpreted as over and points awarded.
3) The lock on a cradle has been broken
A cradle is the only time the pinning "combonation" takes precedent over the "situation". As long as the same cradle is still locked, near fall points cannot be awarded. Upon the release of the grip and establishment of the above criteria, points are awarded.
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Post by helper on Feb 27, 2011 23:00:34 GMT -5
Exactly what I was hoping for! Going into next season Start a thread, then click the sticky tab and it will stay right below the rankings always at the top. Or we can create a separate tab where any ref on here can moderate it and give input. Great way for kids to gain some insight and learn. Thanks again for all your help and commitment to this site and RI wrestling.
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winged4
New Member
"A man can fail many times, but he is not a failure untill he gives up"
Posts: 38
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Post by winged4 on Feb 27, 2011 23:09:49 GMT -5
its weird to think that rhode island has some of the best refs in new england and we still manage to get complaints, makes you wonder a bit on what other states are like. but no matter what in any sport i suppose there will be complaints.
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Post by canupinme63 on Feb 27, 2011 23:48:47 GMT -5
good stuff Joe, I agree with what you have here for the most part - you guys did a great job, some calls are bang bang....I think whats gets folks mad is stalling for the most part. It is like a strike zone in baseball - there is a zone to work in to make decision, but it is just that - an interpertation. Takedowns, reversals, escapes on the edge are quick, bang-bang calls...most of the times you guys are right and we have to go with what you see....sometimes....oh well... as I was told before years ago...don't leave the match in the hands of a ref's interpretation...in other words the wrestlers need to make it work....
But stalling is in fact an issue - some refs do call it slower than others, some look for certain movement, some call stalements quicker than others, some have no idea and call it when coaches yell. Some call stalling - to get action going - as was overheard during discussions. I think you need to get the group together and come up with a tougher guideline as it is not fair to wrestlers - what is it - and it should not be an arbitrary thing. It should be as they say - what it is - it is...... I do not know the answer - but lets be serious and honest - we all know that refs have a different criteria regarding stalling.... I think if that got tightened up - we would see an upgrade in action.... just a thought...great overall job dealing with all you have to...
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Post by wiseowl on Feb 28, 2011 0:11:14 GMT -5
I'd like to see locking hands called more consistently. My understanding of the rule is that when locking hands does occur that the ref should stop the match when the defensive wrestler is not in an immenent situation to escape, but to give the time to allow for the escape if the defensive wrestler is in such a position.
But to many times do you see the ref holding his hands up forever when there is no escape attempt being made, therefore the match should be stopped and point(s) awarded. For clarification there is no such thing as a free move, as a lot of coaches do yell. You just can't get in trouble (ie. give up back points, or pinned) when the offensive wrestler has locked hands.
As for stalling, I'd still like to see more calls on it, every year the refs say their gonna be more aggresive and there not. Maybe just me, but I even yell for my own guys to get hit and they don't hit them lol. I was glad to see the 5 second standing rule imposed more, and to see I think Smith hit a guy back to back for 10 seconds of hanging on, Although I thought Dave Capone should of hit another stall call in his 2nd reffed match at 160 on Georges to put the match in OT, maybe Burrows needed to be a little more aggresive, but I thought it warrented a call.
While we may not agree w/ judgement calls, the rules are the rules, and the only thing we can argue. So before we hang the refs, know the rules, and interpretations. We need refs in RI so if you think you can do better, get out there and give back to the sport. I've done youth matches and it's not easy, split second decisions, rules, safety, ect... going on out there. And just because your coach says this is the rule, we're not always right either.
Excellent idea about a section for rules questions. Also is it true that the only reason Soarsey got in was because Lillibridge was away? lmao
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Post by rulesguy on Feb 28, 2011 0:24:48 GMT -5
Stalling is so subjective, it truely makes it difficult even to discuss.
We constantly talk about this during our meetings, but no matter how much we discuss together what to look for, its up to those who are out their to make a call.
I truely believe that some of the problem with both refs and coaches viewpoint on stalling is they are so concerned with the what the other wrestler is doing they forget about their own or the opponent.
When I make a stalling call, I am usually greeted with the statement of "What is the other guy doing?". Or i hear referees make excuses like, well "he wasn't shooting so, i wasn't going to call the other guy for stalling". So many times we try to break it down to number of shots, riding parallel, or having a western hook that we forget to just step back and say what is realistic.
True story from the State tournament
A defensive wrestler stood up off the whistle, runs for 5 steps, and is forcefully brought back to the mat flat on their stomach. We are in that position for no more than 3 seconds when the coach of the top wrestler begins to scream "their not even trying to get off the mat!!!"
Really? Really? Just got face planted and they have only three seconds to make it back to their base before i am supposed to say they are stalling? but I digress...
Another situation
Another wrestler stands up, natural motion of the wrestlers take them towards the line, the wrestler almost breaks free and the top wrestler reduces to a double. He drives forward to finish his double and they fo out of bounds. The bottome wrestler's coach yells "He just pushed him out of bounds!!!"
Again, really? just because we are near the line the wrestler on the double leg is no longer allowed to go forward to finish the move, they must defy all sense of logic and pull the wrestler on top of themselves to avoid a stall or fleeing the mat call? Does that make any sense to anyone?!?!
Coaches also want stalling called consistantly. However, they are perfectly fine with two wrestler dancing for the first period to a 0-0 score. But in the third, when their wrestler is down a point and their kid only has 20 seconds to score, i am now expected to change how the other wrestler has been wrestling all match just because his kid wants to wrestle now.
The point I am trying to make, is that you truely have to be objective in order to understand and call stalling. You also have to know it when you see it, you have to be assertive in calling it, and you can't be afriad of the outcome after the call.
We can get into the finer points and specifics of it another time. But that objective view on the mat, is so much fdifferent thatn the view from anywhere else, both visually and mentally.
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Post by spiral101 on Feb 28, 2011 0:33:00 GMT -5
Will the videos be up tonight?
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Post by soarsy on Feb 28, 2011 8:18:01 GMT -5
Nice one Owl!! Haha!
Let's keep a couple things in mind when criticizing officials. And believe me, I don't mind CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, it makes us all improve.
Most of us do not do this for the money (officials or coaches). We do this for the love of the sport and, more importantly, to help the kids become responsible young adults, that can compete in a tough world and contribute to society in a positive manner.
I was ready to retire a couple years back due to time commitments at home. My wife has been in school full time and working full time for the past several years. My kids (I have 2) are involved in their own activities including sports other than wrestling. I have missed some of my daughter's track meets and son's basketball games to stay involved with wrestling. Because of that I had given notice a couple years ago that I was retiring from officiating, and I did retire fully from College Officiating. Many of the other HS officials, and many coaches in RI, talked me into continuing with HS officiating. I know my wife would not mind it one bit if I retired fully so that I could be home more for the kids and to help around the house. I'm sure many of the other officials and coaches have similar issues with their home life etc.
With all that said, I think having this thread to discuss rules and interpretations is a great idea, and I will participate in the discussions as much as possible. Please keep the comments positive and on point without making it personal.
As far as stalling goes, it is by far, the most difficult call to make CONSISTENTLY. I almost always include a short discussion on stalling in my pre-dual meet conversations. I always tell the kids if I am making statements such as "stay on the mat", "let's work", or "action" etc. then someone is stalling and I haven't called it yet. I cannot direct those comments directly at one wrestler or the other but I tell the kids if you hear me making those comments and you feel it may be you that is not working, then you better get moving. Therefore when I make a stalling call, it should not come as a surprise.
OK, have to get some work done. More on stalling later?!
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Post by canupinme63 on Feb 28, 2011 8:48:49 GMT -5
Thanks Joe & Bobby for your thoughts....it is a tough call... and Joe, I had to laugh and agree with what you were saying about coaches yelling for a stall later in the match, but are ok if the kids dance to a 0-0 first period score...classic and so true... !
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Post by wiseowl on Feb 28, 2011 12:55:42 GMT -5
I can't stand 0-0 after 1, it's not dance class, lol.
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Post by pin123 on Feb 28, 2011 18:08:12 GMT -5
Gravina is my favorite  |
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Post by traversdad1 on Mar 7, 2011 12:47:10 GMT -5
I Love you Soarsey...I think your just great all around guy...Sorry sometimes when you have to listen to my big mouth...Even i can get *ed off at the things i say or do...(just reflecting back at some of my kids matches)...Keep up the good work.
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Post by soarsy on Mar 7, 2011 14:30:47 GMT -5
Thanks Mr. Travers! I know it is an emotional sport so I try not to take anything personal. You've done a great job with your kids, you keep up the good work as well!!
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